OTBB’s Very Important 2020 Hall of Fame Chat
Max 7:13 PM
Since it’s not clear yet, this is the 2019/2020 Official Off The Bench Hall of Fame chat. You can see last year’s chat here. #BainesBucket.
We’ve been doing this since 2013 and describe it as a process, but really it’s more of a portal into our minds. What follows is that unfiltered portal full of all of its circular logic, silly digressions, and sabermetric bumbling. Enjoy.
Logan 7:13 PM
I liked the Baines Bucket.
Max 7:13 PM
This year, Sean and I are joined by OTBB newcomers Logan Hollers and Rick Saleeby. Gentleman, care to introduce yourselves briefly?
Logan 7:14 PM
Pleasure to be here, boys – a pleasure exceeded only by the Nationals signing noted longballer Starlin Castro. #BACKTOBACKCHAMPS
Ricker 7:15 PM
Rick – Yankee fan – debunker of Jeter hate – supporter of more roids in the game… watched Logan cry at the NL wild card
Thank you fellas for the invite!
Logan 7:15 PM
Aptly described.
Max 7:15 PM
Excellent. Welcome guys
As per previous years, we’re using this space to come up with an Official OTBB ballot. That mean no more than 10 players can get our vote and we must decide on the up to 10 by consensus. We’ve never done this with 4 people before but I’m sure it’ll go swimmingly. We’ll go through each player 1 by 1 and discuss their candidacy before we choose who we choose. Any questions?
Logan 7:17 PM
We don’t have to pick 10, right? We can do less?
Max 7:17 PM
Yup. Up to 10
Logan 7:18 PM
Let’s boogie.
Max 7:18 PM
Since this will take forever, let’s get going. Sean, who’s first up this year?
Logan 7:19 PM
Ok, hear me out: Chone Figgins.
Ricker 7:20 PM
I wish he was kidding
Sean 7:20 PM
I apparently have a tradition of doing this by a fire and stoking the fire far too much just before we get going.
Max 7:20 PM
Hold you horses there big guy, We go alphabetically
There are rules here
Logan 7:20 PM
No, that was it. I just wanted to say his name. Thanks for hearing me out.
Sean 7:21 PM
Bobby Abreu is first up. I remember him for his home rub derby and little else
Max 7:21 PM
I remember that he was faster than you thought in MVP 2005
Sean 7:21 PM
Bobby Abreu is one of only eight players all-time with at least eight seasons with 100 runs scored, eight seasons with 100 RBI and eight seasons with 100 walks.
Ricker 7:21 PM
The home run derby the effed his swing for the whole second half
And balls bouncing past him the other way off the wall in the old stadium
Logan 7:22 PM
He had multiple seasons with over 6 WAR, I guess?
Max 7:22 PM
He was good!
I’m not sure a Hall of Famer though
Logan 7:22 PM
Shitload of walks…
Not a Hall of Famer.
Ricker 7:23 PM
He also the Ewing theory of World Series
Max 7:23 PM
But if Baines is…..
Sean 7:23 PM
For reference, the Baines Bucket is a real bucket outside of the Hall of Fame and anybody who you thought was ok you can put their baseball card in there.
Max 7:23 PM
Abreu is definitely in the Baines Bucket
Ricker 7:23 PM
He especially doesn’t rise to the hall for me in this era
Logan 7:23 PM
That sounds about right for Abreu.
Max 7:24 PM
Ok, bucket of honor outside the hall, but no plaque inside. Moving on.
Logan 7:24 PM
Wow though, he’s 25th all time in stolen bases?
Sean 7:24 PM
Bobby Abreu is going in the Baines Bucket. Josh Beckett is next. Beckett surprises me
Max 7:24 PM
Screw that guy
Back me up, Rick
Ricker 7:24 PM
I watched him trot toward first base with game 7 tickets in my pocket
Max 7:25 PM
I watched it from the stands in game 6
Logan 7:25 PM
Led the league in wins in 2007, World Series MVP, 35.6 career WAR.
But a bum.
Sean 7:25 PM
Beckett’s not in because his career ended at age 34 (when he threw 115 innings at a 2.88 ERA). He was fine. I’m glad my team didn’t have him.
To me – that’s huge. If I don’t really want my team to have him, how is he in the Hall?
Max 7:26 PM
Why’d he retire?
No one wanted to play with him?
(Aka the Papelbon Effect)
Logan 7:26 PM
Too much fried chicken in the clubhouse
Ricker 7:27 PM
He was pivotal on two title teams… hall of fame stuff in isolated cases… couldn’t keep it all together for the type of resume you need
Logan 7:27 PM
Was basically hurt his entire tenure with the Dodgers.
Ricker 7:27 PM
They 3-1 comeback against a Cliff Lee and CC Sabathia Tribe too
But a hard no for me… he’s a what coulda been
Sean 7:28 PM
I mean… he’s famous. That should be enough. You know who we get to talk about next? Heath Bell. Not famous.
Logan 7:28 PM
This sums up Beckett’s career for me
Max 7:28 PM
Go away Josh Beckett
Logan 7:29 PM
2009-2011 Heath Bell was a monster.
Ricker 7:29 PM
He was more clutch than Trevor as a dad’s closer. So he’s in for me
Max 7:29 PM
I think David Sampson recently talked a lot of smack about Heath Bell on the radio. Said he was the worst pickup of his Marlins presidency
Logan 7:29 PM
Hated Ozzie Guillen.
Max 7:29 PM
Heath Bell- not a Miami guy
also probably not a HOFer
Sean 7:30 PM
In 2013, I wrote this that the Diamondbacks “are also going to pay Heath Bell $5M to do Heath Bell things. They certainly do not have any crippling contracts”
Logan 7:30 PM
Probably? No way.
Sean 7:30 PM
Heath Bell = not a crippling contract = not a Hall of Famer”
Ricker 7:31 PM
Hit the showers heath
Max 7:31 PM
Agreed. If Trevor Hoffman and Bruce Sutter are maybes, Bell is nowhere close
Next!
Sean 7:31 PM
Barry Bonds is in his 8th year on the ballot
Logan 7:32 PM
UGH. I really want to say no, but it has to be a yes.
Ricker 7:32 PM
There shouldn’t be a hall without him. I don’t give a damn about the ‘roids
Max 7:32 PM
It’s an obvious yes. I’m a hard yes every year and I will gladly die on this hill
Agree 100% with Rick
Ricker 7:32 PM
I get that guys like Mike Trout will never have an act two like what drugs allowed for Bonds but still
He was an oversized head and shoulders over any era ever
Logan 7:33 PM
Lol.
Max 7:33 PM
By the numbers, he was the best player ever. He’s got to be in the baseball museum. That he’s on his 8th shot is a travesty
Logan 7:34 PM
He was literally historically dominant, and yes, PEDs were better than the uppers or whatever the hell everyone else was using in the 1950’s, but he was incredible before he got all jacked.
Ricker 7:34 PM
He had what? 3 MVP’s before
Sean 7:34 PM
The one time I’ve seen a popcorn line stop at a ballgame was when Bonds came to the plate in Cincinnati in 2004. Won seven National League Most Valuable Player Awards, the most of any player all-time (1990, 1992-93, 2001-04)…Finished in Top 10 of NL MVP voting six other times
Ricker 7:34 PM
Buck walked him with the bases loaded. Enough said
Logan 7:35 PM
Is Bonds on the baseball Mount Rushmore?
Max 7:35 PM
I’ll just leave this right here
Ricker 7:35 PM
He is. Yet not in the hall
Sean 7:35 PM
No. We’re not doing Rushmores
Max 7:35 PM
I say yes.
Ricker 7:35 PM
Bonds is absolutely far too late in
Logan 7:35 PM
I’m a reluctant yes for nothing to do with performance.
Sean 7:35 PM
The actual Mount Rushmore is lame. Why do we need to spend time making more fictional Mounts?
Logan 7:36 PM
Ouch, says the South Dakotan.
Ricker 7:36 PM
WWE Rushmore is more fun
Logan 7:36 PM
What mounts are on the Mount Mount Rushmore?
Ricker 7:36 PM
…on the next slack
Sean 7:36 PM
Let’s say nice things about Eric Chavez
Logan 7:36 PM
Moneyball.
Max 7:37 PM
He was good enough to be one of the washed up stars the Yankees got after their primes
Logan 7:37 PM
Peak Chavez was good for 30 dongs and 100 ribs a year. That’s pretty good.
Sean 7:37 PM
Is he Matt Chapman 1.0?
Max 7:37 PM
I was definitely scared going against Peak Chavez
Logan 7:37 PM
I mean, six Gold Gloves ain’t nothing.
He sucked butt in the postseason, though. Shouldn’t performance on the highest stage be factored in?
Never an All-Star, either.
Ricker 7:38 PM
He’s the mid 2000’s Howard Johnson
Logan 7:38 PM
People slept on him?
Ricker 7:39 PM
Sometimes. Good glove. Socked in a shitty park… benefited from cocaine in the lineup… oh maybe that was just Hojo
Not the hall of all stars. Out.
Max 7:40 PM
Chavez is definitely not a hall of famer. But I feel like he should get a few votes. Definitely enough to stay on the ballot. He’s like 20% of a hall of famer. Though since each vote taken individually is a ‘yes’ or ‘no’ up or down vote, that doesn’t really make sense. I’m going find a rabbit hole. Can we move on?
Logan 7:40 PM
Agreed. And he wasn’t ever an All Star anyway.
Ricker 7:40 PM
I’d take 20-25 percent HOF, Max
Sean 7:41 PM
Do people like Roger Clemens? I don’t like him. I want to be petty and not vote for him for no reason
Except I’m going to pretend the PEDs are too much
Max 7:41 PM
My head says if Bonds gets a vote, Clemens has to too. My heart says screw that guy
Logan 7:41 PM
I was just typing the same. If Bonds is in, Clemens goes in.
Max 7:42 PM
And I deal with this inconsistency every year. I feel like we usually vote for him?
Ricker 7:42 PM
Prick who needs to be in for the hall to be legit. Just like Bonds
Logan 7:43 PM
He was one of the most dominant starting pitchers ever. Seven Cy Youngs. Third in strikeouts ever. But a steroid user and an asshole. He’s a Hall of Famer.
Max 7:43 PM
So does Rocket, and his 6 Cy Youngs and the swaggy way he extorted teams to payhim like $20 million for 15 starts for like 4 years after he was good, move on?
Sean 7:43 PM
I don’t know if we usually vote for him, but I definitely am less enthused by his candidacy for no real reason
Max 7:43 PM
7 Cy Youngs, my bad
Ricker 7:43 PM
Dude would throw at his own kid in a father son game.
In
Max 7:44 PM
There’s fewer deserving players this year. I doubt we’ll run up against the 10 barrier, Let’s keep Clemens for now
Sean 7:44 PM
Adam Dunn is next. Adam Dunn would be on my fantasy team every year if he was still active
Logan 7:44 PM
Very much agreed. Strikeouts are worth it for the sweet, sweet 480-footers.
Sean 7:44 PM
What’s Dunn’s line in 2020 if he played?
Max 7:44 PM
Adam Dunn has to be so mad that he was 10 years too early to be the biggest star in baseball
.188/.298/.900
Logan 7:45 PM
lolololol
Ricker 7:45 PM
He’s the prototype sadly
Sean 7:45 PM
2020 Adam Dunn = 2020 Chris Davis
Max 7:45 PM
No. That’s mean
Joey Gallo should have to pay Dunn royalties
Sean 7:46 PM
Is it though? He’s only 6 years older than Davis
Logan 7:46 PM
From 2004-2010, Dunn was second in MLB home runs. He’s the reason we’re now at three true outcomes.
Ricker 7:46 PM
One day Chris Davis will be debated on this chat
Logan 7:46 PM
Not a joke: for Dunn’s career, 49.9% of his plate appearances resulted in a walk, strikeout, or home run.
Also not a joke: Adam Dunn is not a Hall of Famer.
Max 7:47 PM
He’s probably a borderline Hall guy if he debuts in 2018. Now though, not so much.
Ricker 7:47 PM
He’s more influential than people think on today’s game and was ultra fun but no
Shit he had 462 bombs
Sean 7:47 PM
Adam Dunn’s place in baseball history is shockingly important for a guy with 17 career WAR.
Ricker 7:48 PM
I wouldn’t have guessed that
Sean 7:48 PM
Chone Figgins made 1 ASG. I wouldn’t have guessed that either
Max 7:48 PM
If I we’re Dunn I’d have that on my business cards
Logan, why’s Figgins in?
Logan 7:48 PM
He’s not – I just like his name.
Max 7:49 PM
It’s spelled wrong
Logan 7:49 PM
SO SILLY!
Sean 7:49 PM
Wait – Adam Dunn had 462 dingers?
Ricker 7:49 PM
Cause he’s the only dude logan can bench more than on the list
462!
A dinger ever 15 ABs
Max 7:50 PM
Ricker 7:50 PM
Other 14 were Ks
Max 7:50 PM
fact
Who’s after Figgins?
Sean 7:52 PM
Wait. One more Chone thing. He did a lot of cool things once – One time All-Star. Once finished 10th in American League MVP voting. Topped .300 mark in batting average in one season (2007). Led AL in stolen bases once (2005). He’s definitely schooling kids in pick up basketball at the local Middle School who have no idea why this old guy is so athletic
He’s perfectly suited to be a big deal if you know who he is, but totally irrelevant if you’ve never heard of him
RAFAEL FURCAL
Logan 7:53 PM
He got $36 million from the Mariners in 2010. Took a 101-loss team and turned them around to … 101 losses again.
Max 7:53 PM
Does throwing 98mph from short get you into the Hall? If not, Furcal’s out
Ricker 7:53 PM
He was the real scrappy in 2002. Forget eck
Max 7:53 PM
Was on the ballot last year? I feel like I made that same joke
Sean 7:53 PM
Rafael Furcal had more bWAR than Harold Baines.
Logan 7:54 PM
Alright, now we’re talking – 3-time All Star, hit a ton of triples, played great SS…
Max 7:54 PM
Baines is going to screw up the arithmetic on this stuff for generations
Logan 7:55 PM
Furcal was good, but not great. Not a Hall of Famer.
Sean 7:55 PM
If he had like 200 more steals, I think I’d go to bat for him
Ricker 7:55 PM
You also just described Chuck Knoblach
But not from short, and threw 100 into the second row
Furcal a laser of a good time but no
Sean 7:56 PM
Hey Max – can you make a case for Jason Giambi?
Logan 7:56 PM
Rick will.
Over 400 home runs should be a huge check in the YES column.
Ricker 7:58 PM
Probably my fav player of the 2000s haha
Logan 7:58 PM
That 2000 season was huge.
Ricker 7:58 PM
Another guy who was a roadmap for the modern game
Max 7:58 PM
Washed guy the Yankees got after he was good…. only he still was good for a while!
Ricker 7:59 PM
To me his just two seasons short… victor conte needed to last till 2005-6
He should have won 2002 mvp… him or his teammate
Max 7:59 PM
Yeah, the PEDs really hurt him because he wasn’t GREAT, just VERY GOOD
Ricker 8:00 PM
I loved his late surge and Stache at the end of his yankee deal… and his time as quasi player-manager for the tribe.
Logan 8:00 PM
Also, think of who else was around then…Mark McGwire, Big Hurt, Edgar Martinez, Crime Dog, Palmeiro. He’s not as good as them.
Max 8:01 PM
I’d say he was a good as Big Mac
and maybe Rafael Palmiero too
He was really good! If he was clean, he’d have an outside shot. With the PED weight around his neck, no way
Sean 8:02 PM
you know what really hurts Giambi? The lack of steroids – he played in perfectly the wrong time frame. If he had come along 2 seasons earlier, he could have gotten 2 more juiced seasons in and have a legit shot. Instead, I think he’s out. From 2007 (when they started cracking down) through his retirement after 2014, he hit just .225 and averaged just ~100 games played
Ricker 8:02 PM
Healthy he’s a 500 home run hitter and with his uncanny ability to get on base id then say yes. But sorry Giambino
Exactly! Two more pumped up years
Jeremy Giambi is also a no
Max 8:02 PM
That 2007 number is really notable
Is Jeremy on the ballot?
Sean 8:04 PM
It’s a little unfair because after 2008 was when he really went downhill. But Jeremy is not on the ballot. Todd Helton is next.
Logan 8:04 PM
I love Helton.
Max 8:04 PM
I kinda do too
Sean 8:05 PM
Fun fact about Todd Helton – I work out with him sometimes. He’s really quiet. Doesn’t engage except to ask about how to modify workouts because his knees are shot
Logan 8:05 PM
Damn, that’s dope. Ask him for some hitting tips.
I want to have this discussion much more in depth (and we will towards the end), but the Coors Field effect is a buncha stinky bullshit.
Sean 8:06 PM
woah – why?
Ricker 8:06 PM
Thought a lot about Helton… don’t really care about Coors
Max 8:06 PM
Stinky in that it doens’t matter?
Ricker 8:06 PM
I think he’s in
Logan 8:06 PM
No, your home ballpark shouldn’t matter.
Max 8:06 PM
What are Helton’s home/road splits?
Logan 8:07 PM
Home: .345/.441.607
Road: .287/.386/.469
Max 8:07 PM
hmmmm
Logan 8:07 PM
227 to 142 for home runs.
Ricker 8:07 PM
He’s still a career .300 hitter
Logan 8:08 PM
MVP votes in six seasons.
Ricker 8:08 PM
He played more of his career at Coors than Larry Walker but their numbers are very comparable and I feel like Walker is a darling this year.
Logan 8:08 PM
.300/.400/.500 club with over 2,500 hits and 3,900 times on base. Only 11 players in history have done that, and 10 of those 11 are in the Hall of Fame.
Sean 8:09 PM
That’s a great stat
Max 8:09 PM
I know Logan has strong feelings on Walker, but I like Helton. I’d be ok with not eliminating him yet
Sean 8:09 PM
I like Helton
Logan 8:09 PM
I like both, but Helton is a Hall of Famer for me.
Max 8:10 PM
Let’s keep him around for now and move on.
Who’s next
Sean 8:10 PM
Raúl Ibañez is next.
Max 8:11 PM
Yankee legend
Ricker 8:11 PM
Was that the game where Jeter broke his leg?
Sean 8:12 PM
I’m surprised by his career. He’s kind of like Nick Markakis except didn’t play full time until age 30
Max 8:12 PM
That’s ….. not exactly a ringing endorsement
Ricker 8:13 PM
By the Kirby Puckett standard Raul is first ballot
Max 8:13 PM
By the OTBB standard, i think he’s out
Anyone object?
Sean 8:14 PM
His age 30-42 seasons: 1840 hits, 278 Homers. Ichiro: 2418 and 88
Max 8:14 PM
Weird comp but ok
Logan 8:14 PM
Out.
Ricker 8:14 PM
Thank you for pinch hitting for Arod but out
Max 8:15 PM
Who’s next?
Sean 8:15 PM
OK – we get to talk about Derek Jeter
Max 8:15 PM
Oh no
Logan 8:15 PM
Finally.
Ricker 8:15 PM
Ricker has left the chat
Max 8:15 PM
ha
Sean 8:16 PM
I once witnessed Max cry about Derek Jeter
Max 8:16 PM
Logan, spout your bs first. Then Rick and I can systematically dismantle it like Dan Goldman debunking a Devon Nunes Fox News conspiracy
Logan 8:16 PM
What, when he watched his defense?
Max 8:16 PM
Hey! that’s private!
Logan 8:17 PM
I have to warn you, gay frogs and chemtrails factor into my rationale.
Ricker 8:17 PM
I don’t want to hear it
Sean 8:18 PM
Honestly, if Jeter had played in the 2010s, he would have been the victim of the shift and had an offensive career similar to post-2013 Brian McCann
Ricker 8:18 PM
The two decades in which he played most of his career only people ahead of him in WAR are all first ballot or should be
Max 8:18 PM
Honestly, that’s insane
Logan 8:18 PM
Ok: Derek Jeter is maybe a top-8 shortstop all time. He was one of the worst defensive shortstops ever, didn’t deserve a single Gold Glove, and benefited from having historically good lineups around him. He was a great contact hitter, sure, and Silver Sluggers are fine, but he was incredibly overrated.
Ricker 8:19 PM
If we play that game what is Tony Gwynn’s career?
Logan 8:19 PM
That said, he’s a top-8 shortstop all time, and he was one of the last true superstars, and I wanted him on my team. He’s a locked-in first ballot Hall of Famer.
Ricker 8:19 PM
He was robbed of a couple of mvp’s. Damn Midwest sports bias
Logan 8:20 PM
He was a great player, but if he gets 100% (and he will), that’s lame.
Ricker 8:20 PM
Yankees’ all-time career leader in hits (3,465), doubles (544), games played (2,747), stolen bases (358), times on base (4,716), plate appearances (12,602) and at bats (11,195).
That’s insane for a franchise with that history.
Logan 8:20 PM
And smokeshows bedded (397).
Ricker 8:20 PM
I don’t think he will get first ballot
Max 8:21 PM
.310 career hitter. .308 in the playoffs in 158 games. Proven Winner. Leader of Men. Captain.
Sean 8:21 PM
Nobody cares about the Yankees. This has been enough. Remember when Andruw Jones hit those home runs at Yankees stadium and it was awesome?
Ricker 8:21 PM
I mean unanimous, sorry
Max 8:21 PM
Luckily he’s not being judged on his front office acumen
Logan 8:21 PM
Let’s move on to Jones. That’s a good debate, and the Yankees fawning will get out of control.
Sean 8:22 PM
Among players with 10-or-more Gold Glove Awards, only Willie Mays, Ken Griffey Jr. and Mike Schmidt have more home runs than Andruw Jones
Max 8:22 PM
Jeter’s in. As in an in can be
I’m pro Jones
Ricker 8:22 PM
Jones is one of those guys I would really love to say yes to
Sean 8:22 PM
We voted for Jones last year
Logan 8:22 PM
Same. Very much so. Yes from me.
Max 8:22 PM
I think he was the last guy in
Max 8:23 PM
Sean, any more Jones nuggets before we bump him to the second round?
Logan 8:23 PM
10 straight Gold Gloves, dudes.
Max 8:23 PM
His problem was the tail of his carer was long and bad
Logan 8:23 PM
His last few years tainted the memory, but he was so, so good.
Sean 8:24 PM
Imagine if Kevin Pillar had 436 homers. How would we not vote that guy in?
Ricker 8:24 PM
He may have played himself out… almost how I felt about Roberto Alomar
Sean 8:24 PM
Jeff Kent is on the ballot for the 7th time?
Max 8:24 PM
Imagine if Kevin Pillar had Andruw Jones’ swag
I’m very out on Kent
Logan 8:24 PM
Jones is in though, yes?
Sean 8:24 PM
Yes
Logan 8:25 PM
Out on Kent.
Max 8:25 PM
Didn’t he fight Bonds once?
And where was he when Dusty Baker‘s kid needed saving?
Logan 8:25 PM
He fought everyone once.
Ricker 8:26 PM
I’m in on Kent
Logan 8:26 PM
Fighting Benito Santiago.
Ricker 8:26 PM
So overlooked from second base
Max 8:26 PM
Defend yourself
Logan 8:27 PM
One of the best-hitting second basemen ever, most dingers from 2B, and he won an MVP.
Ricker 8:27 PM
Most home runs ever for a second baseman
Max 8:27 PM
Cool. Ryan Howard won an MVP
Ricker 8:27 PM
Second highest slugging
Max 8:28 PM
That’s more persuasive, but I’m still a no
Logan 8:28 PM
I’m a no, but the guy had six straight years of 20 HR, 100 RBI production. From the middle infield.
Ricker 8:28 PM
Production from that position was insane even by roid standards
Logan 8:29 PM
I’m more just mad at him for making Craig Biggio move to CF when he got traded to the Astros.
Sean 8:29 PM
Gotta measure up against the era. He was such a drastic fall off from Bonds that he just can’t be in the HOF. Those two guys were not comprable. We’re really going to vote in a guy who couldn’t provide lineup protection?
Ricker 8:30 PM
74 more homers than Ryne Sandberg
Max 8:30 PM
#lineupprotection
Ricker 8:30 PM
Not gonna die on the Kent hill but I’m pro him
Logan 8:30 PM
Only second basemen to get more hits are Biggio, Alomar, Robinson Cano, and Joe Morgan – all Hall of Famers.
I’m out on Jeff Kent. Not a Hall of Famer.
Max 8:31 PM
Me too
Sean 8:31 PM
he’s out. Anyway – Paul Konerko
More ASGs than Kent
More HRs than Kent
Max 8:32 PM
Konerko was a good player. But he’s definitely not a HOFer. When Frank Thomas was there he wasn’t even the best hitter on his team.
Logan 8:33 PM
That World Series Grand Slam was awesome, though.
Sean 8:33 PM
Talk to me about Cliff Lee
Logan 8:34 PM
Burned bright, but didn’t have the body of work he needs to get into the Hall of Fame.
Ricker 8:34 PM
He’s one of those guy that needed a few more years at that level
Max 8:34 PM
I’m gonna say the best Cliff in baseball history
Logan 8:34 PM
Stuff was electric for a solid five years.
Ricker 8:34 PM
But if post seasons are gonna get you in…
Logan 8:35 PM
Cliff Johnson begs to differ, Max.
Max 8:35 PM
13 year career, first 6 were garbage
last 7 though…
Sean 8:36 PM
On a “feel” perspective, I would have thought he’s better. Guess not. Moving on – Carlos Pena made the ballot
Max 8:36 PM
Good for Carlos. Nice honor
Plus he got a prominent role in Moneyball
He also hit under .200 in 2 separate full seasons
Ricker 8:37 PM
The Rob Deer of his generation
Sean 8:38 PM
Pena went to Northeastern, where I’m currently enrolled. Also Adam Ottavino
Logan 8:38 PM
Great 2007, nothing much else. Next.
Max 8:38 PM
Probably couldn’t hit a curve there either…
Next!
Sean 8:38 PM
Brad Penny is somehow already eligible? Didn’t he retire like a decade after Chone Figgins?
Max 8:40 PM
Best and worst Penny in baseball history
Logan 8:40 PM
Fine career. Won’t make 5%.
Max 8:40 PM
Finished 3rd in the Cy Young voting once
Definitely won’t make 5%
Logan 8:40 PM
Penny and Putz – both out.
Ricker 8:41 PM
Third in Cy Young in what league?
Max 8:41 PM
Is JJ Putz on the ballot this year? That makes me feel old
Ricker 8:41 PM
California penal
Logan 8:42 PM
Stirring debate on Putz’s candidacy – not much more needs to be said.
Ricker 8:43 PM
I liked the way Mad Dog said his name.
Logan 8:45 PM
Who’s next?
Max 8:45 PM
Rick, make a case for him
Logan 8:46 PM
Hard yes from me.
Ricker 8:46 PM
I’m actually a no
But I like him over Curt Schilling
Logan 8:46 PM
Pettitte was the guy you turned to with the season on the line. Consistently.
Ricker 8:47 PM
One of the best stoppers in history
Logan 8:47 PM
Grinder.
Sean 8:47 PM
He only made 3 ASGs and one was a pitty vote in 2010
Ricker 8:47 PM
Robbed of a Cy or two
No one wanted it more on the mound yet had a lot of blowups that keep him out for me
Max 8:48 PM
Logan 8:48 PM
Workhorse on the staff of some amazing Yankee teams and had to pitch to a bunch of roided up monsters.
Ricker 8:48 PM
I can’t love that photo here dammit
Also besides Gio he’s the pitcher I’ve seen most live
Sean 8:49 PM
It’s a good photo
Logan 8:49 PM
I felt feels.
Max 8:49 PM
It’s perhaps my favorite one ever. I won’t admit to crying when Jeter retired, but I will admit to dropping $600 on Pettitte Day tickets and crying like a baby through the whole video tribute
Logan 8:50 PM
Max, you’re cool with him using HGH?
Max 8:50 PM
No, not really. But you overlook the flaws in those you love
Logan 8:50 PM
That’s why I’m fine with you and Rick’s blind allegiance to Jeter.
Max 8:51 PM
I don’t really think Andy’s a Hall of Famer though. We didn’t include him last year
Logan 8:51 PM
I’m a yes, but I get the no’s.
Max 8:51 PM
lots of compile-y seasons and as much as I respect how he made it work after he lost his fastball, there were a lot of post-fastball seasons there at the end
Sean, is he in or out for now?
Sean 8:53 PM
he can move on. We didn’t vote for him last year
JJ Putz!
Ricker 8:54 PM
CC learned a lot from him as far as an act two goes
Max 8:54 PM
I’ve said all I need to on Putz. I’m ready to move on
Also, why is he on the ballot? Is it a Hall of Fame of stupid beards?
Logan 8:55 PM
John Axford‘s in.
Max 8:56 PM
Brian Wilson too
Logan 8:56 PM
And late career Joba Chamberlain.
Sean 8:57 PM
Not Derek Jeter though. Manny Ramirez is next. I got a Manny signature in the spring of like 2005 and it was awesome. He signed my ticket stub with so much swag. I can attribute my signature to Manny Ramirez and my mother. They were the two most influential on my signature development.
Logan 8:57 PM
Sounds like a Hall of Famer to me.
Sean 8:57 PM
Have you ever heard of signing with swag? He literally invented it
Logan 8:57 PM
I actually went back and forth on this one…I’m a yes.
Max 8:58 PM
8 straight top 10 MVP finishes. I’m honestly shocked he hasn’t gotten more support
If he’s clean he’s a first ballot guy, no?
Logan 8:58 PM
He was a clown, but he could play.
Max 8:58 PM
*hit
Logan 8:58 PM
The only thing holding me back is that he still has a lot of chances.
Ricker 8:59 PM
He could be the best right handed hitter ever
Logan 8:59 PM
Max 8:59 PM
I’m a hard yes on Manny. I’d cut another borderline guy before him.
Ricker 8:59 PM
Last guy in history I wanted to see at the plate
Hard yes
Sean 8:59 PM
I’m moving him forward despite the HGH. Brian Roberts stole some bases
Max 8:59 PM
Can someone answer my question on if he’s 1st ballot if clean?
Logan 9:00 PM
For sure. He was the best hitter in baseball for a while, and was a huge part of two teams heading to the World Series.
Ricker 9:00 PM
He’s first ballot to me either way
Max 9:00 PM
I was always terrified of him as a Yankee fan. More than David Ortiz even
Logan 9:00 PM
Hall of Famer.
Brian Roberts is a no.
Ricker 9:00 PM
Two biggest Yankee killers in history back to back in a lineup
Logan 9:00 PM
Jeff Kent is a no, then Brian Roberts has to be
Ricker 9:01 PM
Right
Max 9:01 PM
When I was a kid, I had an irrational affection for Jerry Hairston Jr. Even made my dad get me an autographed picture of him. Brian Roberts took the second base job from him in Baltimore and I always hated him for it.
Logan 9:01 PM
I mean, he gave himself a concussion.
Max 9:01 PM
This is a true story
Sean 9:02 PM
Wait – we’re shitting on Brian Roberts? That’s kinda rude. The guy’s just trying to enjoy retirement. Scott Rolen gets a lot of love.
Logan 9:02 PM
Scott Rolen is an immediate yes from me.
He’s like the definition of a ballplayer.
Ricker 9:02 PM
So is Randy Velarde
Logan 9:02 PM
Injuries kept him from being one of the best ever, but he was the total package.
Ricker 9:02 PM
And they are both no’s from me
Max 9:03 PM
I’m borderline on Rolen. He benefits from a lack of third basemen in the hall
Logan 9:03 PM
Rolen made three separate teams immediately better.
Max 9:03 PM
Someone make the Rolen stats case
Ricker 9:03 PM
So you’re putting mattingly in then based on that logic?
Logan 9:03 PM
Scott Rolen career WAR: 70.2
Average Hall of Fame 3B WAR: 68.4
Max 9:04 PM
what else?
Logan 9:04 PM
Eight Gold Gloves, seven All Star games, over 2,000 hits.
Ricker 9:05 PM
A guy who never once led the league in anything is not a hall of famer
Logan 9:05 PM
.490 career slugging, and that’s fifth among third basemen.
Max 9:05 PM
Rick has a point
Sean, you’re a big Rolen guy, no?
Logan 9:05 PM
He was literally the best defensive third baseman in the league his entire career, and could mash.
Max 9:06 PM
I think Adrian Beltre was better
Ricker 9:06 PM
Was he ever even the best on a team?
Logan 9:06 PM
I disagree, but that’s fair.
Max 9:07 PM
So what are we doing with Rolen?
Ricker 9:07 PM
I’m a no
Logan 9:07 PM
He was the best player on those early 2000’s Phillies teams.
Sean 9:07 PM
we’re not trapping him in a closet and throwing dice at him
Max 9:08 PM
Sooooo where are we on Rolen?
Sean 9:08 PM
You’re on Scott Rolen?! Where are you?
Logan 9:08 PM
Right shoulder.
Sean 9:08 PM
Please dismount Scott Rolen
Max 9:09 PM
This is going well, I’d say
Ricker 9:09 PM
Scott Rolen would still be the second best in that duo
Max 9:09 PM
Over 600k hits last year, who’d believe it…
Logan 9:10 PM
Sounds like Rolen circa 2002.
Sean 9:10 PM
high quality baseball analysis!
I’m out on Scott Rolen for no good reason. I’m also out on Curt Schilling for no good reason.
Logan 9:11 PM
Scott Rolen, when you read this, know that I had your back.
Ricker 9:11 PM
Schilling’s most comparable player on baseball reference is Kevin Brown
There’s my answer
Max 9:11 PM
I’m out on Curt Shilling for a good reason- he’s a #$@!(@*@#*#$*% who doesn’t deserve to be honored or respected by anyone
That’s a better reason though
Ricker 9:12 PM
And if we are going by some post season stuff then Cliff Lee and Andy get in
Logan 9:12 PM
I agree with Max, and that’s enough reason for me.
Curt Schilling, when you read this, know that you’re an asshole.
Ricker 9:12 PM
Dollar store Clemens is a no for me
Sean 9:12 PM
Schilling won the Branch Rickey award once which is more Cy Youngs than he ever won.
Max 9:12 PM
Screw you, Curt
Logan 9:13 PM
No bloody sock, and we aren’t having this conversation.
Sean 9:13 PM
Gary Sheffield would have had a better career as a Shortstop. You’re telling me he wouldn’t have been an icon if he had stuck at SS? A more talented Jeter!
Max 9:13 PM
Stop it
The Jeter hate in this chat is insane. Re2pect your Captain
Sean 9:14 PM
#NotMyCaptain
Logan 9:14 PM
I love this.
I’m a no, but it’s worth noting that Sheffield is 13th in MLB history in sac flies.
Max 9:15 PM
Sheffield is like Jim Rice– great hitter, worthy of remembering, not a HOFer. I realize this was a better argument before Rice got in, but Rice shouldn’t have so I’m sticking with it
You guys see the video of him hitting bombs with a softball with a big stogie in his mouth from a couple months ago? Still got it
Ricker 9:16 PM
I’m a yes on Sheff- he might be top 5-10 hitter of a generation by a number of measurements.
500 homers 900 ops
Sean 9:16 PM
I’m with Ricker
Ricker 9:16 PM
Batting title to boot
Logan 9:16 PM
79.9 career WAR – 35th all time.
Ricker 9:17 PM
Severely overlooked nowadays
And who didn’t imitate his swing?
Logan 9:17 PM
He was awful in the field, and he never led the league in home runs.
Max 9:17 PM
Seems like we’re 2-2 on this.
I’m changing teams, I’m pro Sheff. He moves on
Logan 9:18 PM
He had less than a decade peak, and even in that time, he wasn’t elite elite.
Sean 9:18 PM
We can revisit. We’re en route to more than 10
Logan 9:18 PM
No Jeff Kent or Curt Schilling, but Sheffield’s in?
Sean 9:18 PM
Alfonso Soriano is next
Max 9:18 PM
OTBB Ballot baby!
No on Soriano. Great Yankee though
Ricker 9:18 PM
Such an interesting close case for me
But no
Max 9:19 PM
Make the case
Logan 9:19 PM
No.
Ricker 9:19 PM
Again a combo of power and speed from a middle infield position. Dude was 40 – 40 once
Logan 9:19 PM
He went 30-30 a few times, right?
Ricker 9:19 PM
Almost twice. Missed it by one
He went 40-40 as a nat
I’m a no but damn he was fun
Logan 9:20 PM
I think I prize defense more than the other participants in this chat.
Sean 9:21 PM
Soriano had -10 dWAR
Logan 9:22 PM
Better than Jeter, I guess so….FIRST BALLOT
Max 9:22 PM
I’m not going to tell you again. Re2pect.
Logan 9:23 PM
Are we really going to Sosa?
Because I really want to go to Sammy Sosa.
Max 9:24 PM
Yup. What do you have on Sammy?
Sean 9:24 PM
To SOSA
Logan 9:24 PM
600 home runs, man.
Ricker 9:24 PM
I wasn’t in on Sosa for a long time. Then I wondered why I wasn’t
Max 9:25 PM
I kind a feel like everything I said about Manny works for him too
Sean, where were we last year on him?
Ricker 9:25 PM
It’s not even the career total … three straight 60 home run years
Logan 9:25 PM
The summer of 1998 was one of the most cherished, fun times I’ve ever had a baseball fan, and even the later disappointment won’t erase that for me.
Sean 9:25 PM
We voted him in last year
Ricker 9:25 PM
I’m a yes and baseball and has been very very good to me
Logan 9:26 PM
He was just so fun. Led the league in runs, RBIs, and K’s, and hit 66 homers.
Sean 9:26 PM
I’m a yes, too. Put em in!
Max 9:26 PM
I’m in on Sammy. Co-saved baseball and was just great. The PED thing is an issue though. And his life has taken a bit of a weird turn of late
Hooray!
Who’s next?
Also, round 2 is gonna be tough
Sean 9:26 PM
José Valverde
Max 9:27 PM
Cool. Who’s next?
Logan 9:27 PM
No.
Sean 9:28 PM
Omar Vizquel. Who I think sucks. Hey Max – What did Bobby’s OTBB post say about Omar?
Logan 9:28 PM
That’s a no from me, even though he was one of my favorite players growing up.
Have to be better all-around, even though his glove was unreal.
Max 9:29 PM
Bobby said that he’s basically the anti- Nomar Garciaparra. They got to the same place but in very different ways
But since neither is a Hall of Famer…. I say he’s out
Ricker 9:29 PM
No-mar on Omar
But a freakin wizard to this day
Sean 9:30 PM
I like Billy Wagner, who is next.
Ricker 9:30 PM
I’m a no on Wagner… admittedly saw him as a met too much
Max 9:31 PM
Lot’s of people really like him. He’s got a real shot.
Ricker 9:31 PM
He did no-hit the Yankees
Sean 9:31 PM
Career WHIP of 0.998 is lowest among all relievers with at least 700 innings pitched…. Career 2.31 ERA is lowest among retired left-handed pitchers with at least 500 innings pitched in live-ball era
Logan 9:31 PM
He was a natural righty.
That’s crazy.
Max 9:32 PM
All those things are pretty awesome. I think we voted for him last year
Sean 9:32 PM
He had one season with an ERA over 3. He was hurt that one season
Ricker 9:32 PM
He didn’t even pitch 1000 innings
Logan 9:32 PM
But, Rick says no because he never led the league in saves.
Ricker 9:33 PM
Saves isn’t a stat
Max 9:33 PM
innings is
I say yes and we move on to Round 2 and sort it out
Ricker 9:33 PM
Honestly I’m impressed revisiting his numbers.
Max 9:34 PM
what jumps out?
Ricker 9:34 PM
BAA 197
Lower than Mo
But much fewer innings pitched. Like half
Logan 9:34 PM
Better closing song, too.
Max 9:35 PM
that’s just not true
Sean 9:35 PM
Wow. Strong disagree
Ricker 9:35 PM
mo had as many innings in October haha
Logan 9:35 PM
Best strikeout rate in MLB history.
(They both used Enter Sandman, didn’t they?)
Ricker 9:35 PM
I’m strangely closer on him than I thought I’d be though
But also no
Sean 9:35 PM
Actually – that sounds right. It’s getting late. Larry Walker is next. It’s Larry’s last year on the ballot
Logan 9:36 PM
Larry has to get in.
Ricker 9:36 PM
I’m pro Larry
Max 9:36 PM
If Wagner also used Enter Sandman he should be immediately disqualified. That’s a real JJ Abrams making a Star Wars movie move
Logan 9:36 PM
.313/.400/.565, 383 home runs, 230 stolen bases.
Ricker 9:36 PM
For a lot of reasons I said about Helton before
Max 9:36 PM
I’m also pro Larry, even though Logan is going to tell us why he’s better than Jeter
Logan, if you could only have Helton or Walker, who do you pick and why?
Logan 9:37 PM
Hitters who finished their career with better than a 140 OPS+, 300 homers, and 200 steals: Alex Rodriguez, Gary Sheffield, Barry Bonds, Jeff Bagwell, Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson, and Willie Mays.
And Larry Walker.
I’d pick Walker. He was awesome in the corner outfield, hit great, and was just fun to watch. MVP award, Silver Sluggers, multiple All Star nods, and seven Gold Gloves.
Also, not for nothing, but has a higher career WAR than Jeter.
Sean 9:39 PM
Walker won more MVPs than Jeter. Also had infinitely more batting titles
Logan 9:39 PM
While playing in 759 fewer games.
Ricker 9:39 PM
Coors field effect
Ricker 9:40 PM
Re2pect
Max 9:41 PM
Walker moves on. Let’s see if we have to choose between him and Helton. That wraps round 1, right? We did it! And in just 2 hours 40 minutes. Where are we at so far, Sean?
Logan 9:41 PM
Also, he wore his helmet backwards against Randy Johnson. Which was funny.
Sean 9:41 PM
OK – We’re here with 11… 1. Bonds,
2.Clemens,
3. Helton,
4. Jeter,
5. Jones,
6. Pettitte,
7. Manny,
8. Sheff,
9.Sosa,
10. Wagner,
11. Walker
Max 9:41 PM
Woah
11 is brutal
Sean 9:41 PM
We had 17 at this point last year
I vote Pettitte off
Max 9:41 PM
Ha
Logan 9:42 PM
Sheffield and Pettitte aren’t Hall of Famers.
Max 9:42 PM
I vote Sean off
And now Logan too
Sean 9:42 PM
I vote Max off
Logan 9:42 PM
Andruw Jones and Todd Helton probably aren’t either.
Nor is Max.
Looks like Rick’s all that’s left.
Ricker 9:42 PM
I didn’t have Andy on anyway so I say him
Max 9:43 PM
You guys, I think I vote Pettitte off too
I didn’t have him to begin with!
Ricker 9:43 PM
Did any of us?
Logan 9:43 PM
He’s out. And I’m sending him an e-mail of this thread with Max saying he stunk.
Tears will be rolling down that butt cleft chin.
Sean 9:44 PM
Max can either pick Pettitte or Jeter
There’s a case to be made here to not pick Jeter
Max 9:45 PM
(I think he might be a Trump supporter, I’m trying to just remember the good times)
Logan 9:45 PM
We made it.
Max 9:45 PM
No there isn’t
Sean 9:45 PM
Mo should be the only 100%er. I really don’t want Jeter having that honor too
Max 9:45 PM
Re100%pect
Logan 9:46 PM
STOP
Sean 9:46 PM
is there an insufferable emoji?
Max 9:46 PM
I’m glad Rick’s here to have my back
Logan 9:46 PM
Like you had Pettitte’s?
Max 9:47 PM
Wow. Too far, man. The Nats winning the World Series really changed you
Logan 9:47 PM
Into a winner
Ricker 9:47 PM
Only took a year
Max 9:47 PM
So what’s the final list? Think @NotMrTibbs will add us to his tracker?
Logan 9:48 PM
Surprised Ryan isn’t on this chat.
Max 9:48 PM
Ryan?
Logan 9:48 PM
We don’t have to have ten…like, Helton and Sosa can probably come off.
Thibodaux.
Andruw Jones, too.
Max 9:49 PM
Oh yeah. Maybe we’ll invite him next year
I’m all for voting for more people. The cap is so arbitrary and stupid and we’ve got to make sure people stay on and keep moving in the right direction
Sean 9:50 PM
If we have extra votes, we should use them for things we think are worthy. It’s the same logic about why we give humanitarian aide to places like the Ukraine
Andruw = Ukraine
Logan 9:50 PM
Sold.
Max 9:51 PM
Unassailable logic
Logan 9:51 PM
1. Bonds,
2. Clemens,
3. Helton,
4.Jeter,
5. Jones,
6.Manny,
7. Sheff,
8.Sosa,
9. Wagner,
10. Walker
Max 9:51 PM
So we did it! I love it. Any final thoughts?
Logan 9:51 PM
Sheffield is not a Hall of Famer.
Rolen is.
Max 9:52 PM
That is a fair objection
Logan 9:53 PM
Helton, Jones, and Sosa could probably all come off too, but oh well!
Ricker 9:54 PM
So his plaque could say third fiddle to Jim Edmonds and Pujols
Max 9:54 PM
Ha
Plaques should definitely be sarcastic. I’m very for that
Ricker 9:54 PM
What could Jeter’s say? “Amassed 3,400 hits and 2000 walks… of shame”
Logan 9:55 PM
Jeter: “He managed a front office like he played defense – sloppily, and with no effort.”
Sean 9:55 PM
NotMrTibbs has tracked 136 ballots so far. Ours matches zero of them
Max 9:55 PM
I think that happened last year too
I wonder what that says about us
Logan 9:55 PM
Well those writers just don’t know baseball.
